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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 20:14


Quote: Originally posted by Igoritza  

2. Bog je iznad objashnjavanja kroz prostor vreme. ne mogu da objasnim, jer govorim o Bogu, ali je jednostavno tako. kod njega nema ni pre, ni posle, kod njega je beskonacnost apsolutna. upravo kako rekoh - NAMA je vreme prostor - hendikep, iako nas kompletno definise i potojimo iskljucivo opisani kroz te dimenzije.

upravo zato ja govorim da nije moguce da je iz apsolutno nicega nastao svemir, jer se to kosi sa naukom, koja pak propagira takvu ideju. ako je spontana kreacija ni iz chega moguca, onda je moguce i da iz vazduha nastane Nissan Skyline 34 GT-R, ispred moje gajbe, sa punim rezervoarom i klucevima, ali ne vidim da se desilo niti takvo nesto, niti bilo kakav oblik materije/energije.

to sto krauz pretstavlja zero point kao osnovni nivo, koji sam sebe dopunjuje, pa mu nastaje nergija ni iz chega - to je zato sto NE ZNA odakle dolazi energija, a sigurno nije nastala usled ciribu ciriba. a kazem ne zna, jer josh NEMAMO unifeid field theory, a nemamo ni popunjenu teoriju standardnog modela kao kandidata za UFT. to sto kraus zapravo govori, i sto se odushevljavaju njime Ninpo i Nick je sledeca pojava:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

a kad bi pitao Krausa i Hokinga sta zaista misle, i da su pritom obavezni da daju iskren odgovor. gledali bi te belo.

Nick - FYI, gro naucne zajednice smata da je M-teorija jedan veeeliki Longshot, a ova dvojica se drznuli da na osnovu te teorije prave teorije o nastanku svemira.

Kako to ljudi definišu vreme. Od kada ga definišemo i dali zaista vreme igra bilo kakvu ulogu. Vreme je reč svakako koja definiše neki pojam kao što rade i sve ostale reči. A šta definiše vreme? Da se ništa nije dogodilo onda ne bi bilo ni vremena? Jer kako da računamo nedešavanja vremenski. A kod nas je slučaj da se nešto zbiva, pa mi stvorismo pojam vremena. Kako bre to vreme za nas postoji ako se nešto zbiva, a kada se ništa ne zbiva i ništa nije postojalo onda nije bilo vremena. Kako bre to može?




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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 20:37


sam koncept postojanja je paradoks. najnizi entropijski nivo je da ne postoji nista - a trenutno stanje svemira odudara od te entropije maksimalno.

ljudi zapravo uopste ne mogu da zamisle nikakvo postojanje koje nema vremensku komponentu, pa znamo iz nauke da takvo stanje postoji (singularitet), a znamo i da je samo vreme relativno. sto opet ide u kontru sa svim ljudskim razmishljanjem i percepcijom i rezonom.




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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 20:41


Pojasni mi ovo za singularitet malo detaljnije ukoliko nije problem?



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:09


ogromna kolicina gravitacije, sabija kontinuum. vreme i prostor su zapravo jedna te ista stvar, vreme je cetvrta dimenzija prostora, koju ljudi mogu da opaze.

Ajnshtajnova specijalna teorija relativnosti, pa kasnije teorija kvantnog polja, govori upravo o tome da je prostor u kome postojimo sacinjen od delica koje nazivamo - kvanti.

materija, ioi energija u prostoru su nista drugo do - pobudjenog stanja kvanta.

sam kvant ne razumemo, i ne mozemo objasniti zasto postoji energija u sred jednog kvanta, i zasto osciluje, ali znamo da iz nama naizgled praznog prostora, moze da se izvuce energija, jer svaki kvant ima minimalan nivo energije koji poseduje, a veci je od nule (zero point energy)

dakle, materija, prazan prostor, energija, i elektromagnetni talasi, i cestice - SVE je deo jedne te iste chorbe, sve se svodi na kvantno polje.

pa tako, kada posmatrash svet, univerzum kao jednu homogenu masu na mikro nivou, moze se povezati da jedna vrsta pola utice na drugu.

bez da ulazim u detalje, sta kako, samo cu ti reci da ogromna masa cini da u njenoj blizini 4 dimenzije koje razaznajemo gube na svojoj vrednosti.

zamisli sada, da ubrzavas i odlazis u svemir, dok sve vreme posmatras sa teleskopom sat na zemlji. taj sat ti pokazuje normalno vreme, ali u jednom trenutku, tvoj ruchni sat na zemlji, i sat koji posmatrash ce krenuti da pokazuju razlicito vreme.

to se desava usled cinjenice da se od brzine svetlosti koja dolazi od sata do tebe, oduzima u svakom momentumu, tacno onoliko kolika ti je brzina u procesu ubrzavanja.

e, ako dostignes recimo uzasno veliku brzinu, od jedne trecine svetlosne brzine, tvoj sat ce pokazivati u tom trenutku, 1/3 vremena proteklog brze, nego onaj sat sa zemlje. (ovo nije tacno, zbog pokusaja da prezentujem preko momenta, a ne preko "a" ali sam tako napisao radi laksheg zamishljanja)

e, gravitacija je zapravo pseudosila sili ubrzanja. i, sve vreme je osecamo.

a vreme na zemlji tece normalno, jer je efekat zemljine gravitacije nedovoljan da izazove promenu vremena u odnosu na bilo koji okolni referentni sistem (recimo, baza na Jupiteru)


ali, kada govorimo o crnoj rupi, koja je enormna - dakle, hemijska struktura materije je da imash jezgro, koje nosi svu masu, i elektrone okolo. ako bih ja ovde u ostruznici imao jabuku u ruci koja je zapravo velicine jezgra atoma - najblizi elektron bi bio negde u zarkovu, a najdalji negde u zemljinoj orbiti. e - crna rupa je sastav bez hemijskih osobina - samo sabijena jezgra, koja su u medjuvremenu progutala elektrone. a to se desilo tako sto je ogromna energija ponistila efekat slabe nuklearne sile koja izmedju ostalog ima ulogu da ne da jezgrima nukleona da se dotaknu.

dakle - jedna supena kashika materijala crne rupe, bi imala kosmichki gravitacioni efekat skoro cele planete zemlje.

u takvim uslovima - dolazi do sabijanja vremeprostora, i iz referentnog sistema spoljnog posmatraca, ispada da je crna rupa PROGUTALA materiju, ali sama materija nikad nece doci do povrshine crne rupe, jer joj vreme tezi nuli.

recimo - kada bi krenulo nas nekoliko, u blizinu crne rupe, koja je velicine kamionske prikolice - za spoljnog posmatraca od nekoliko hiljada kilometra - vidljivo posmatranje ne bi bilo moguce (crna rupa se ne vidi) ali bi matematicki proracun ispao da nas je ona progutala. e al za nas - bi vreme bilo kao da smanjujesh Pitch na plejeru muzike, i pesma ide iz normalnog glasa u onja duboki, pa polakoo ... polakooo pa josh sporije ... i onda stop.

i ceo koncept crne rupe je zapravo paradoks :)




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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:17


WOW. Kako temeljno objašnjeno iako ne u potpunosti koliko možeš, ja verujem da si na moje pitanje mogao i knjigu da mi napišeš ali je ovo sasvim dovoljno da shvatim neke stvari. Dakle ovo sa crnom rupom je jako interesantno. Ispada da u njoj vreme ne postoji odnosno ako sam razumeo stoji. Onda dali to znači da mi ne bismo starili?



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:29


pa, ne bi smo starili, ali ne bi smo ni postojali, jer bi smo bili zamrznuti u trenutku. crna rupa, odnosno blizina crnoj rupi je kao iz onog zenonovog paradoksa o streli.



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:38


Jao pričao nam profesor filozofije za zenov paradoks, sada sam zaboravio o čemu govori, ti naravno znaš, kako ide beše podseti me.



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:46


isto kao i Ahil i kornjaca.

Stela leti tipa 10 m/s. Za jednu sekundu strela predje 10m. Za sledecih pola sekunde - 5 m, za narednih 1/4 sekunde 2.5 m, za 1/8 sekunde 1.25 m. Za neku ekstremno malo vrijednost vremena, strijela nece preci nista, takoreci stojace.




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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:51


Ista fora i čovek prelazi put od jednog metra, ta fora xD. No, to nam je profa filozofije objasnio kao pojava čoveka da sve stvari deli na delova pa tako i nastaje zabluda da je prostor podeljen. Valjda sam dobro shvatio poentu priče o streli?



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:54


Umijesto da sliku o strijeli posmatras kontinualno, ti prostor i vrijeme izdijelis na djelice i dobijes paradoks o strijeli. Mada realno cak i kada i prostor i vrijeme izdjelis na djelicem, koriscenjem limesa ovaj problem se lako rijesava, tako da i nije paradoks, bar ne vise.



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:57


TO se računa preko limesa kada X teži beskonačnosti ili kako?



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[*] posted on 20.1.2011 at 21:58


da bas tako



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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 07:10


Imagine, just for a moment, that you are aboard a spaceship equipped with a magical engine capable of accelerating you to any arbitrarily high velocity. This is absolutely and utterly impossible, but it turns out it'll be okay, for reasons you'll see in a second.

Because you know your engine can push you faster than the speed of light, you have no fear of black holes. In the interest of scientific curiosity, you allow yourself to fall through the event horizon of one. And not just any black hole, but rather a carefully chosen one, one sufficiently massive that its event horizon lies quite far from its center. This is so you'll have plenty of time between crossing the event horizon and approaching the region of insane gravitational gradient near the center to make your observations and escape again.

As you fall toward the black hole, you notice some things which strike you as highly unusual, but because you know your general relativity they do not shock or frighten you. First, the stars behind you — that is, in the direction that points away from the black hole — grow much brighter. The light from those stars, falling in toward the black hole, is being blue-shifted by the gravitation; light that was formerly too dim to see, in the deep infrared, is boosted to the point of visibility.

Simultaneously, the black patch of sky that is the event horizon seems to grow strangely. You know from basic geometry that, at this distance, the black hole should subtend about a half a degree of your view — it should, in other words, be about the same size as the full moon as seen from the surface of the Earth. Except it isn't. In fact, it fills half your view. Half of the sky, from notional horizon to notional horizon, is pure, empty blackness. And all the other stars, nearly the whole sky full of stars, are crowded into the hemisphere that lies behind you.

As you continue to fall, the event horizon opens up beneath you, so you feel as if you're descending into a featureless black bowl. Meanwhile, the stars become more and more crowded into a circular region of sky centered on the point immediately aft. The event horizon does not obscure the stars; you can watch a star just at the edge of the event horizon for as long as you like and you'll never see it slip behind the black hole. Rather, the field of view through which you see the rest of the universe gets smaller and smaller, as if you're experiencing tunnel-vision.

Finally, just before you're about to cross the event horizon, you see the entire rest of the observable universe contract to a single, brilliant point immediately behind you. If you train your telescope on that point, you'll see not only the light from all the stars and galaxies, but also a curious dim red glow. This is the cosmic microwave background, boosted to visibility by the intense gravitation of the black hole.

And then the point goes out. All at once, as if God turned off the switch.

You have crossed the event horizon of the black hole.

Focusing on the task at hand, knowing that you have limited time before you must fire up your magical spaceship engine and escape the black hole, you turn to your observations. Except you don't see anything. No light is falling on any of your telescopes. The view out your windows is blacker than mere black; you are looking at non-existence. There is nothing to see, nothing to observe.

You know that somewhere ahead of you lies the singularity … or at least, whatever the universe deems fit to exist at the point where our mathematics fails. But you have no way of observing it. Your mission is a failure.

Disappointed, you decide to end your adventure. You attempt to turn your ship around, such that your magical engine is pointing toward the singularity and so you can thrust yourself away at whatever arbitrarily high velocity is necessary to escape the black hole's hellish gravitation. But you are thwarted.

Your spaceship has sensitive instruments that are designed to detect the gradient of gravitation, so you can orient yourself. These instruments should point straight toward the singularity, allowing you to point your ship in the right direction to escape. Except the instruments are going haywire. They seem to indicate that the singularity lies all around you. In every direction, the gradient of gravitation increases. If you are to believe your instruments, you are at the point of lowest gravitation inside the event horizon, and every direction points "downhill" toward the center of the black hole. So any direction you thrust your spaceship will push you closer to the singularity and your death.

This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.

But it isn't. It's the absolute, literal truth. Inside the event horizon of a black hole, there is no way out. There are no directions of space that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.

In fact, this is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.

Your magical infinitely-accelerating engine is of no use to you … because you cannot find a direction in which to point it. The singularity is all around you, in every direction you look.

And it is getting closer.






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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 10:14


Quote: Originally posted by SuperStaljin  
Imagine, just for a moment, that you are aboard a spaceship equipped with a magical engine capable of accelerating you to any arbitrarily high velocity. This is absolutely and utterly impossible, but it turns out it'll be okay, for reasons you'll see in a second.

Because you know your engine can push you faster than the speed of light, you have no fear of black holes. In the interest of scientific curiosity, you allow yourself to fall through the event horizon of one. And not just any black hole, but rather a carefully chosen one, one sufficiently massive that its event horizon lies quite far from its center. This is so you'll have plenty of time between crossing the event horizon and approaching the region of insane gravitational gradient near the center to make your observations and escape again.

As you fall toward the black hole, you notice some things which strike you as highly unusual, but because you know your general relativity they do not shock or frighten you. First, the stars behind you — that is, in the direction that points away from the black hole — grow much brighter. The light from those stars, falling in toward the black hole, is being blue-shifted by the gravitation; light that was formerly too dim to see, in the deep infrared, is boosted to the point of visibility.

Simultaneously, the black patch of sky that is the event horizon seems to grow strangely. You know from basic geometry that, at this distance, the black hole should subtend about a half a degree of your view — it should, in other words, be about the same size as the full moon as seen from the surface of the Earth. Except it isn't. In fact, it fills half your view. Half of the sky, from notional horizon to notional horizon, is pure, empty blackness. And all the other stars, nearly the whole sky full of stars, are crowded into the hemisphere that lies behind you.

As you continue to fall, the event horizon opens up beneath you, so you feel as if you're descending into a featureless black bowl. Meanwhile, the stars become more and more crowded into a circular region of sky centered on the point immediately aft. The event horizon does not obscure the stars; you can watch a star just at the edge of the event horizon for as long as you like and you'll never see it slip behind the black hole. Rather, the field of view through which you see the rest of the universe gets smaller and smaller, as if you're experiencing tunnel-vision.

Finally, just before you're about to cross the event horizon, you see the entire rest of the observable universe contract to a single, brilliant point immediately behind you. If you train your telescope on that point, you'll see not only the light from all the stars and galaxies, but also a curious dim red glow. This is the cosmic microwave background, boosted to visibility by the intense gravitation of the black hole.

And then the point goes out. All at once, as if God turned off the switch.

You have crossed the event horizon of the black hole.

Focusing on the task at hand, knowing that you have limited time before you must fire up your magical spaceship engine and escape the black hole, you turn to your observations. Except you don't see anything. No light is falling on any of your telescopes. The view out your windows is blacker than mere black; you are looking at non-existence. There is nothing to see, nothing to observe.

You know that somewhere ahead of you lies the singularity … or at least, whatever the universe deems fit to exist at the point where our mathematics fails. But you have no way of observing it. Your mission is a failure.

Disappointed, you decide to end your adventure. You attempt to turn your ship around, such that your magical engine is pointing toward the singularity and so you can thrust yourself away at whatever arbitrarily high velocity is necessary to escape the black hole's hellish gravitation. But you are thwarted.

Your spaceship has sensitive instruments that are designed to detect the gradient of gravitation, so you can orient yourself. These instruments should point straight toward the singularity, allowing you to point your ship in the right direction to escape. Except the instruments are going haywire. They seem to indicate that the singularity lies all around you. In every direction, the gradient of gravitation increases. If you are to believe your instruments, you are at the point of lowest gravitation inside the event horizon, and every direction points "downhill" toward the center of the black hole. So any direction you thrust your spaceship will push you closer to the singularity and your death.

This is clearly nonsense. You cannot believe what your instruments are telling you. It must be a malfunction.

But it isn't. It's the absolute, literal truth. Inside the event horizon of a black hole, there is no way out. There are no directions of space that point away from the singularity. Due to the Lovecraftian curvature of spacetime within the event horizon, all the trajectories that would carry you away from the black hole now point into the past.

In fact, this is the definition of the event horizon. It's the boundary separating points in space where there are trajectories that point away from the black hole from points in space where there are none.

Your magical infinitely-accelerating engine is of no use to you … because you cannot find a direction in which to point it. The singularity is all around you, in every direction you look.

And it is getting closer.


hahaha sjajan tekst :)




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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 13:02


sjajan tekst, i krajnje depresivan :D ni sa magichnim spejsshipom, ne mozes da se izvuces, kakav bedak ...





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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 13:07


evo malo zabave




[Edited on 21.1.2011 by Stale]




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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 13:24


Quote: Originally posted by Igoritza  


recimo - kada bi krenulo nas nekoliko, u blizinu crne rupe, koja je velicine kamionske prikolice - za spoljnog posmatraca od nekoliko hiljada kilometra - vidljivo posmatranje ne bi bilo moguce (crna rupa se ne vidi) ali bi matematicki proracun ispao da nas je ona progutala. e al za nas - bi vreme bilo kao da smanjujesh Pitch na plejeru muzike, i pesma ide iz normalnog glasa u onja duboki, pa polakoo ... polakooo pa josh sporije ... i onda stop.


interesantno i super opis. samo bi jos dodao ako recimo taj zvucni signal (koji si uzeo kao parabolu) u svakoj sledecoj vremenskoj jedinici down pitchujes za recimo duplo, on nikad ne bi dosao do stanja nule tj do stanja kao kad bi pritisnuo dugme STOP na plejeru (stanje nepostojanja vise tog signala - stanje nule). vec recimo 0.0000000000000000001 Hz/2 etc...)

edit:

hahah tek sad procitah ostatak o streli :D

[Edited on 21.1.2011 by InsaneEyes]




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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 13:43


Quote: Originally posted by Null  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22fMdrFu4LE
Ili sam ja lud ili epizoda nema tona. A šta da zaključim iz date slike, da čovek kontroliše sve oko sebe, i da zloupotrebljava svoj položaj surovog vladara. Mislim da nisam mogao nešto poučno da naučim odavde...


[Edited on 20.1.2011 by Null]


a da pogledash epizodu umesto shto gledash u jednu sliku na tom klipu ? ;)





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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 13:52


http://www.ted.com/talks/george_smoot_on_the_design_of_the_universe...



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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 14:04


Quote: Originally posted by Nyarlathotep  
Quote: Originally posted by Null  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22fMdrFu4LE
Ili sam ja lud ili epizoda nema tona. A šta da zaključim iz date slike, da čovek kontroliše sve oko sebe, i da zloupotrebljava svoj položaj surovog vladara. Mislim da nisam mogao nešto poučno da naučim odavde...


[Edited on 20.1.2011 by Null]


a da pogledash epizodu umesto shto gledash u jednu sliku na tom klipu ? ;)


Mislim da je nyrla hteo da kaže da je ceo život predstavljen u tom klipu kao jedan tok vremena bez zvuka,u kojem se samo menjaju slike s vremena na vreme,dok nam na kraju našeg života ne istekne trake.

Onaj link simboliše prelaz koji moramo načiniti kako bi se unapredili kao individua i kao celokupna ljudksa rasa,a naravno,taj link sadrži u sebi mnogo drugih linkova koji opet vode na druge linkove i tako u nedogled,što opet,predstavlja večnu ljudsku potrebu koju moramo negovati,a to je konstantan napredak.

Naravno,ne vode svi linkovi na pozitivne sajtove,ali baš je u tome štos,da prepoznamo koji putevi nisu dobri,a opet,to možemo samo empirijskim putem.

Ono robot pile smo mi,a onaj ludi naučnik predstavlja negativnu stranu nauke koja zarad progresa želi da zanemari etiku i ljudskost u svom napretku.

[Edited on 21.1.2011 by Black_Waltz]




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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 14:15


^^
+100 internets to you BW.

Nego, na ovoj temi obozhavam Igoritzine postove, keep it up!





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[*] posted on 21.1.2011 at 23:16


Sorry but, ja i dalje cekam Igoricin odgovor na moju bullshit filozofsku ideju o bogu koga nije briga :D





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[*] posted on 24.1.2011 at 04:28


Jedino boznastvo kojeg se plasim je INVISIBLE BANHAMMER!



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[*] posted on 24.1.2011 at 04:32


Tu je uvek i sve vas posmatra...





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[*] posted on 24.1.2011 at 04:35


On ne zeli da vas spasi, On ne zeli da vasim beznacajnim zivotima da vishi razlog, On zeli.... .......da vas banuje.



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